I have increasingly felt that Abraham's response is the equivalent of "But I know someone/have family there! Surely it can't be that bad."
When I hear responses like this in current conversation, I really want to say "Your friend, your family, they look like you and me, right? Are they cis and straight and white? No wonder you don't know about oppression - you and yours aren't on that side of the equation."
The day after the 2016 election, I called my boss to get ahead of possible complaints when I mouthed off to someone over the coffee machine in the breakroom. One of my coworkers had made a "They should go back where they came from" kind of statement in response to my saying that people were afraid of what the new administration would do.
He's a good man. He told me I should maybe have controlled my use of the f-bomb because it's the office, but that he would absolutely back me on the sentiment. No one actually complained, and I hope it's because they didn't want to have to repeat their end of the conversation to HR.
I always had trouble with this story, even with everything you have said, I truly don't think it is right what God did. I don't, killing a whole city no matter the cause seems like a horrible crime to me, no matter how bad the people in it were. I will also say, I truly think no matter what there is enough righteous people. Right now the world is shit and I deal with depression and suicidal thoughts daily, even I can see there are people fighting at every turn, even though it seems the fight is pointless, like the world will fail anyway, that doesn't mean there aren't righteous people trying, I have trouble believing Sodom is not the same, maybe that is my history instincts turning on, reading it as a historical text rather then one imbedded in truth, I don't know. Even if the whole city was that bad, if there truly were no righteous people, I feel there surely had to be a more just way of handling it.
Thank you for reiterating that in the Torah, the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with loving, consensual sex between men. Just like “onanism,” which you will still find used as a term to condemn male masturbation, is really about using women, so “sodomy” should really refer to exploitation of and violence against immigrants and people considered Other.
So if the rule is 10 saves the polity, I think we have way more than that here right now. But, they usually aren’t the ones in charge. I’d say there are clearly more than 10 in every city of size in this country. Though the Talmudic casting of the sin makes the sin of Sodom quite modern looking. Shocking the parallels we find when we look deeply into how people have wrestled with this for thousands of years.
Thing is, if we bumble into a climate disaster that reduces the carrying capacity of the earth drastically, we will have engineered a more general type destruction than a targeted Sodom type. And the righteous once again will die with the evil. One where the most appropriate parallels are not going to be found in Bereshit/Genesis, but rather in the two Tocheichah warnings (Deuteronomy 25 and Leviticus 26).
The economics of the Old Testament are extremely radical by modern standards. Look at the story of Ruth and the limits on taking the fruit of one's own land. I grew up in the Jewish tradition, and found the Old Testament to be full of economic reformers, crazed prophets denouncing the social order and, with the jubilee and limits on the lengths of contracts, an exotic economic world. Maybe I had the kid's version of the book but, to my surprise, it said remarkably little about sex other than that it was generally a good thing overall.
The sequel seems to be full of that kind of stuff too.
I had some bad brainjuice keeping me away for a bit, but wow, what a piece to come back to to start my catch-up.
Similarly to what I said before, I have to wonder if Abraham's questioning isn't more borne out of... desperation? defensiveness? "My town was full of idolators. Was there any righteousness there? Is there *any* righteousness anywhere? What is good enough to sway God, what is the smallest bit I can find that might save more, that might lead to better?"
But ah, standing up when there's so much bad around you is so difficult. A lot of times it isn't even maliciousness, it's apathy, or not wanting to make yourself the target of the evil surrounding you. But those are still evil, in their own way, for allowing evil to keep flourishing unchallenged.
I have increasingly felt that Abraham's response is the equivalent of "But I know someone/have family there! Surely it can't be that bad."
When I hear responses like this in current conversation, I really want to say "Your friend, your family, they look like you and me, right? Are they cis and straight and white? No wonder you don't know about oppression - you and yours aren't on that side of the equation."
The day after the 2016 election, I called my boss to get ahead of possible complaints when I mouthed off to someone over the coffee machine in the breakroom. One of my coworkers had made a "They should go back where they came from" kind of statement in response to my saying that people were afraid of what the new administration would do.
He's a good man. He told me I should maybe have controlled my use of the f-bomb because it's the office, but that he would absolutely back me on the sentiment. No one actually complained, and I hope it's because they didn't want to have to repeat their end of the conversation to HR.
I always had trouble with this story, even with everything you have said, I truly don't think it is right what God did. I don't, killing a whole city no matter the cause seems like a horrible crime to me, no matter how bad the people in it were. I will also say, I truly think no matter what there is enough righteous people. Right now the world is shit and I deal with depression and suicidal thoughts daily, even I can see there are people fighting at every turn, even though it seems the fight is pointless, like the world will fail anyway, that doesn't mean there aren't righteous people trying, I have trouble believing Sodom is not the same, maybe that is my history instincts turning on, reading it as a historical text rather then one imbedded in truth, I don't know. Even if the whole city was that bad, if there truly were no righteous people, I feel there surely had to be a more just way of handling it.
Thank you for reiterating that in the Torah, the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with loving, consensual sex between men. Just like “onanism,” which you will still find used as a term to condemn male masturbation, is really about using women, so “sodomy” should really refer to exploitation of and violence against immigrants and people considered Other.
So if the rule is 10 saves the polity, I think we have way more than that here right now. But, they usually aren’t the ones in charge. I’d say there are clearly more than 10 in every city of size in this country. Though the Talmudic casting of the sin makes the sin of Sodom quite modern looking. Shocking the parallels we find when we look deeply into how people have wrestled with this for thousands of years.
Thing is, if we bumble into a climate disaster that reduces the carrying capacity of the earth drastically, we will have engineered a more general type destruction than a targeted Sodom type. And the righteous once again will die with the evil. One where the most appropriate parallels are not going to be found in Bereshit/Genesis, but rather in the two Tocheichah warnings (Deuteronomy 25 and Leviticus 26).
Wow! Not what I was taught in Hebrew school! Thank you.
The economics of the Old Testament are extremely radical by modern standards. Look at the story of Ruth and the limits on taking the fruit of one's own land. I grew up in the Jewish tradition, and found the Old Testament to be full of economic reformers, crazed prophets denouncing the social order and, with the jubilee and limits on the lengths of contracts, an exotic economic world. Maybe I had the kid's version of the book but, to my surprise, it said remarkably little about sex other than that it was generally a good thing overall.
The sequel seems to be full of that kind of stuff too.
I had some bad brainjuice keeping me away for a bit, but wow, what a piece to come back to to start my catch-up.
Similarly to what I said before, I have to wonder if Abraham's questioning isn't more borne out of... desperation? defensiveness? "My town was full of idolators. Was there any righteousness there? Is there *any* righteousness anywhere? What is good enough to sway God, what is the smallest bit I can find that might save more, that might lead to better?"
But ah, standing up when there's so much bad around you is so difficult. A lot of times it isn't even maliciousness, it's apathy, or not wanting to make yourself the target of the evil surrounding you. But those are still evil, in their own way, for allowing evil to keep flourishing unchallenged.